To Catch A Killer - KCBS

[ista]

I just read that article for the first time, it's dated 2/14/02. Jennifer Smith (Lyman Smith's) daughter was interviewed for it.

Reading Pools comments in that interview and his being so confident that the murders were all related. I re-read several more about the SoCal murders and a couple of times I saw the special (diamond) knot mentioned. These are all articles years after the fact. Is this one of the main pieces of evidence that is tying all of these murders together?

[jjmcgr]

The knot was only found at one crime scene (even though Whitmeyer tried to claim it was found the Goleta scenes as well, it was not!).

so its significance may be exaggerated. it may be a red herring. it was not found at any of the EAR scenes that Pool is so certain are linked, even though the bindings were left behind at all those scenes.

The UM show made a big deal of the knot in its segement on the case.

[ista]

This is a quote from the 2/14/02 - "To Catch A Killer" - KCBS -

Special Assignment: "To Catch a Killer" aired Thursday February 14, 2002 at 11 p.m.
Robert Offerman and Alexandra Manning, hands tied in a rare diamond knot, tortured, raped and beaten to death, were the first to die at the hands of a particular killer who takes his time.
Detective Larry Pool says, "He's spent up to four hours in a house raping and re-raping."

Out of all of the newspaper articles I have read, over and over again, granted there are some out there I have not seen or read, the knot was very prevalent in the SoCal murders. This happens to be the 1st Goleta murders. The CCF episode also said that Ms. Manning was raped in the '03 version.

I'm a lay person here, but, something isn't adding up. I've read everything made available to the public. The special knot as far as I have read was disclosed to the Public years after the fact.

There was no qualm about releasing the size 9 Adidas Herringbone tennis shoe print, or the fact that dishes were put on the men's back. Talk about a signature.

This tells me, which we all know there is hold back information, and 2 separate accounts now of Ms. Manning being raped and that knot was used at the first of the murders in SoCal on 12/30/79. I'll question this until someone shows me positive proof otherwise and I will continue to do so.

[jjmcgr]

you are welcome to believe whatever you want . I personally do not think the facts support such a belief, however.

really you should question the knot being there, not the other way around, when the preponderence of the evidence and logical inference lcearly indicates the knot was only at Ventura [if for no other reason than the unified people like Pool would mention the knot and do not].

The tv show got it wrong and I cannot believe you are using them as a source of factual evidence. They were probalby getting info from the Ventura PI who is the only named source to ever claim the knot was used anywhere but in Ventura. The knot was not "very prevalent."

you may want to reference those articles that claim the knot was present. I have read all the articles and have seen no claims by any named source that the knot was anywhere except in Ventura, except for claims by unreliable Pi from Ventura.

a review of the facts will show that the knot could not have been present at any other crimes aside from Ventura except for 1st and 2d Goleta.

At DP, and the two Irvines, the bindings were removed and taken. At 3 Goleta the bindings were removed from Mrs. domingo. Mr. sanchez had nor been tied up at all as a gunshot had incapacitated him better than any twine.

Someone at one time on AETV, grasping for the 'knot as signature' theory, tried to claim the knot could be seen in the bruising on one of the Irvine vicitms, but this was obvious wishful thinking.

At 1st Goleta, the victims were tied up and got loose. No mention of a special knot there ever (except years later by the PI from Ventura).

At 2d Goleta, the same twine was used as at 1st Goleta and the vicitms were found tied up. But , again, never a mention of the knot even in articles which have Heaney and Pool pressing for a link (for example the SB News-Press article of October 3, 2000). You'll note in the blurb from the tv show it is not Pool who is claiming the knot was in Goleta. pool and Heaney had tons of face time on the CCF episode, yet the knot is not even mentionedo n that show.

other PI claims:

-All the Goleta victims were bludgeoned to death (only at the 3d scene did that happen and even there ,one of the vicitms was also shot.

-The Goleta murder victim women were raped. Also incorrect

-The dog doesn't matter.... right... at two crime scenes by accident

-He worked on the Smith case while at VCSD. The case was a VPD case and he'd retired three years before and had been a vice/ narc cop anyway.

-Rarely mentions he got involved in the case trying to get Alsip off for the Smith murders.

[jjmcgr]

it's interesting that some choose to believe in phantom knots with minimal evidence but when a lieutenant for SBSC clearly indicates a DNA mismatch between Goleta and the linked crimes, no one even cares. Twine, phantom knots and wooden matches are considered to be far more significant!

here's the reference:
(from Serial link explored in old murders
Goleta, Orange County cases similar Santa Barbara News-press, by Dawn Hobbs, October 3, 2000 )

While Santa Barbara sheriff's detectives say there may be a connection between the Goleta killings, they are not convinced the same person is responsible for the others.
"There was DNA evidence in our investigation that does not match the DNA from their killer," said Lt. Mike Burridge, spokesman for the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department. "We obviously would like nothing more than to solve these homicides. There are still surviving victims, and surviving and grieving family members who would like to see these cases resolved."
But while there are similarities among the cases, there are just as many inconsistencies, Burridge said.
"I would say that it is not outside the realm that they could be connected," he said. "It's also not outside the realm that they are separate killers."

[jjmcgr]

>>>>This is a quote from the 2/14/02 - "To Catch A Killer" - KCBS -

Special Assignment: "To Catch a Killer" aired Thursday February 14, 2002 at 11 p.m.

Robert Offerman and Alexandra Manning, hands tied in a rare diamond knot, tortured, raped and beaten to death, were the first to die at the hands of a particular killer who takes his time.
<<<<

this short blurb from a tv show has three factual errors in it. Obviously it should not be used as the basis of any belief in certain facts about the case.

The errors are:

1. there was no rare diamond knot at the 2d goleta crime scene.

2. the victims, Offermann and Manning, were not beaten to death.' they were shot to death.

3. Ms. Manning was not raped.

The sotry fails ot mention the presence of the dog and the unmatching DNA, but why ruin a good dramatic yarn with the facts?

they did get the names right and the fact it happened in Goleta at least.

[ista]

What you posted was from an article from Oct. 3, 2000. These are articles after that date and is using different technology:

New lead found in serial rapes: After decades, DNA links the East Area Rapist to crimes in Orange County.
By M.S. Enkoji and Ralph Montaño
Bee Staff Writers
(Published April 5, 2001)


Efforts to link serial murder cases in Orange County with rapes in Northern California began four years ago, officials said.

Paul Holes, a criminalist at the Contra Costa County crime lab, said a local detective noticed a similarity to the Orange County murders, many involving couples, and asked the lab to check out the hunch.

At the time, the DNA tests being done in Contra Costa and Orange counties were not very comparable because of different technologies.

Meanwhile, Orange County authorities were doing their own tests. In October, they announced the murders were linked and developed a profile of the killer, describing him as an intelligent, methodical planner, who scouted victims scrupulously, choosing middle-class to affluent neighborhoods.

Contra Costa authorities again heard about the case and asked for a DNA profile, this time using comparable technologies, Holes said. The DNA from the East Bay rapes matched the DNA from Orange County.


New hope in hunt for rapist
By M.S. Enkoji
Bee Staff Writer
(Published May 24, 2001)


And now a criminalist in Contra Costa County, using long-shelved DNA evidence, has connected him to a series of Southern California murders -- the killings of four couples and two women in Orange, Santa Barbara and Ventura counties from 1979 to 1986.

Armed with a DNA profile, authorities in Southern California met recently with Sacramento and Contra Costa county law enforcement to renew their effort to find the rapist-turned-killer.

Even if they come up with a suspect, he will never go on trial for the Northern California rapes because the time limit for arresting him has long since expired. Murder has no time limit.

Though rape evidence was typically tossed after the time limit, criminalists in Contra Costa County held on to evidence, believing he would surface.

"It had always been set aside in a special place in our lab," said Paul Holes, supervising criminalist at the Contra Costa County Sheriff's Crime Laboratory.

Holes contacted Southern California authorities to follow up on earlier theories that the rapist had moved south. The string of murders and sexual assaults there seemed similar to the Northern California attacks. Early attempts several years ago to match DNA from both crime sets were inconclusive, but newer, better methods paid off recently with a match.



To Catch A Killer
A CBS 2 Special Assignment

KCBS Feb 14, 2002

ORANGE COUNTY - One Orange County Sheriff's Detective is on the trail of a killer who could be one of California's most notorious criminals. The killer could be dead, or could be already locked up in prison. The question: can the investigators catch the killer before he can kill again?

CBS 2's investigative reporter Drew Griffin has the story.

Special Assignment: "To Catch a Killer" aired Thursday February 14, 2002 at 11 p.m.

Robert Offerman and Alexandra Manning, hands tied in a rare diamond knot, tortured, raped and beaten to death, were the first to die at the hands of a particular killer who takes his time.

Detective Larry Pool says, "He's spent up to four hours in a house raping and re-raping."

The first killings took place on Dec. 30, 1979. For the next 7 years, the killings would continue, one almost every six months. The killer always struck during a midnight break-in, surprising a couple asleep in their bed.

The victims included: Charlene and Lyman Smith in Ventura; Patty and Keith Harrington, Liguna Niguel; Manuela Lithune, Irvine; Domingo and Gregory Sanchez, Goleta.

Then came a five-year gap, before the killer struck for the last known time. Her name was Jannelle Cruz, murdered in Irvine on May 4, 1986.

At first the murders in separate towns were thought to all be separate crimes, carried out by separate killers. But Orange County Detective Larry Pool says what brought them all together came from the bodily fluids the killer left behind, stored away and saved, until DNA technology has now caught up with him.

The samples just last year were sent off to a crime lab and came back with startling results. Not only is the killer connected to each and every one of these murder victims, he is in fact the worst serial rapist that Sacramento has ever known. He is a killer who began as a rapist with more than 50 victims.

[ista]

I'll post the links to the special knot later today.

[ista]

In the FDLE Criminal Investigative Analysis there are 5 references to the "diamond knot". I have no idea when this analysis was written. The analysis is only in reference to the Ventura and OC murders. Even in this analysis the "diamond knot" was given signficant reference to.

Page 3 Paragragh 6
Page 10 Paragraph 4
Page 12 Paragraph 4
Page 13 Paragraph 1
Page 13 Paragraph 4

There are many details in that report which comes directly from the investigators involved in the cases. Det. Harold Scott, Ventura PD, Inv. Larry Pool, OCSD, and Det. Larry Montgomery, Irvine PD.

There is a reference to DNA matchs regarding the 4 females. What I would wonder is, was this analysis prepared before the conclusion that Goleta was linked to these crimes as well?

[seniorcrown]

Serial Killers keep up with what's shown on TV, newspapers, magazines, about crimes they do.

So, since LE knows this and consistantly uses the media, the question really is what are the chances that there are non factual information in those newspaper articles, magazine articles and on TV ? Probably there were.

Arguing over the accuracy or even validity of information is moot unless one has access to all the case files.

[ista]

Ref: Date of the FDLE Analysis per nickg on AETV:

nickg
Posts: 1,389
From: Florida
Registered: 3/15/04
Ignore Member Re: FDLE linked killer MO item
Posted: May 11, 2006 5:23 PM (4 of 5) Report
fdle profile only relates to 4 murder scenes and was done in 1998 - three murder scenes in OC and the smiths in ventura

[jjmcgr]

The FDLE analysis was featured prominently on the CCF episode and the comments from it can be found in the show transcript on this website at jjmcgr.googlepages.com/TRANSRIPT.pdf.

The FDLE analysis is also found on this site at:
jjmcgr.googlepages.com/nightstalkerprofile.pdf

The date it was prepared is not indicated, but from the context is seems to have been before the CCC link was discovered.

The FDLE is great for its description of the linked murders in details that are only found in the police reports.

To me the most significant passage about the linked crimes in the FDLE is:

The female victims were all sexually assaulted and were assaulted in the same manner. They were all assaulted vaginally and there was no evidence of oral or anal assault on the victims.

The above is a sharp contrast to descriptions of at least some of the EAR crimes as described by Bill Miller, SCSD spokesman. However, I bet the EAR-A crimes all match the above description.

[ista]

Jjmcgr, thank you for pointing that out. I had noticed that in the FDLE and did go back and read over some of the other articles, again.

BTW, your web site is a breeze to find things on. I don't have to dig through stacks of folders now.

I don't know how nickg came up with the year, but, it seems the right time frame.

Again, thank you for all the hard work you have put into this.

[jjmcgr]

the knot may be referred to extensively in the psychological FDLE document but the only crime it was used at among the ones the study used (actually all of them as well) was the Ventura attack.

had to fix a censor setting on this board.

I've tried to make this website barebones so it is easy to find things.

nickg is on here now so he can answer that date question, although the CCF episode all but spells out that it was prepared between the time of the initial DNA link with Ventura (Feb 1998) and the CCC link (Jan 2001).

[smprfi]

I just red the posts by jswansails and while most of them sound as if she is mocking some of the others and trying to "fit" everything that was ever posted about the bum, to her man, one detail caught my eye. She stated that "James" told her he brought the dog to the crime scene to "have intercourse with the victim". That was never posted by anyone before and I wonder if anyone here ever saw a reference to something like that.
Ista, You seem to have good rapor with jswansails, is there any way You can find out more about that possibility?
Thank You.

[guessting]

Is this true?

Re: To Catch A Killer - KCBS
« Reply #1 on Jun 10, 2006, 6:12pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The knot was only found at one crime scene (even though Whitmeyer tried to claim it was found the Goleta scenes as well, it was not!).

so its significance may be exaggerated. it may be a red herring. it was not found at any of the EAR scenes that Pool is so certain are linked, even though the bindings were left behind at all those scenes.

The UM show made a big deal of the knot in its segement on the case.

[portofleith]

Guesst,
No, the statement about the knot being used only at the Smith crime scene appears not to be true. I think the knot was meant to be a police holdback and just one news article leaked the DK info and resulted in Ears ONs removing ligatures from future crime scenes. Read Cason's "In the Dragon's Lair" on JJ's website where she discusses the case summaries. Also read Bruce Harrington's comments about his brother's murder and the intricate macrame knots and twine used in his brother's murder.

www.humanities.uci.edu/litjourn/students/writing/shenproposition69.pdf

[portofleith]

Does enyone know if special knots were used in the Ears crimes? Presumably he left victims tied, so were the shoelaces knotted using the DK ?

[guessting]

Thanks Port. Another thing, Macrame was hugely popular in the early seventies until the late seventies. Wonder if he was no eagle scout, no military man, just a loved his mama and stayed home and made macrame plant holders. In 1973, a beautiful plant shop called the Bonnaro Fandango opened in Carmichael, The guy who owned it had made some beautiful macrame hangers. I was in that shop alot. The shop was on Fair Oaks Blvd. just before El Camino Ave. Coming from El-Camino if you crossed Fair Oaks Blvd it became Van Alstine.

Interesting location if you look on the map...

[guessting]

rr

[ebe777]

Ok, I'm new here, so please go easy, everyone!

Oh, and I work for the E! Network and can conform that we indeed ARE doing an entire hour show on the ONS/EAR

Upon reading the FDLE is occured to me that perhaps it might be a good idea to speak with any known prostitutes who were around at the time of these crimes in or around the specific areas who might recall any clients who were particularly agressive with tying them up with diamond knots and acting out fantasies such as the ONS must have had. I know this would probably be exteremely difficult, but it is possible that such individuals might be located....

[portofleith]

Ebe777,
Welcome and don't let the board politics deter you. I just keep doing research off board when the political infighting here starts bordering on the ridiculous. Guessting has already begun this research and started by interviewing a former stripper at one of the Sac local clubs during this time period. The problem that you(or she) might encounter with this research is that many street prostitutes who were working then, are quite likely dead now. Someone did suggest interviewing at the legal bordellos in Nevada that were functioning then.

If I were you, I would email Guessting wihtin the message forum of this venue to find out what she has learned. Her job gives her unique access to the subjects you have mentioned.

Portofleith

[guessting]

Good Morning,

Port just called me and I can put you in contact with prostitutes from the greater Sacramento area that are still alive today. If you message me I will contact you and I can put those woman in contact with you. Thanks. G

[kona]

Whitmeyer told me last month, in Goleta1,2,and 3 it was only grannies or square knots used.
Kona

[portofleith]

Kona,
I know the FDLE says that Lyman Smith's ankles were bound by a square knot. Do you think Ears ONs tied the square or grannies after the victims were dead? I did n't think ligatures were left at these crime scenes, except for lengths of twine? According to the Boy Scouts, you would never use a granny knot to keep anything secure:

When your shoes keep coming untied, it is because you are tying Granny knots instead of Square knots. The Granny knot is given to show what not to do. The Granny knot will come untied almost immediately and is not used for any Boy Scout application.

[guessting]

For anyone who is interested and not familiar with knots "you tube" has the diamond knot, the granny knot and various other knots. It has a brief video showing how they are tied. Google "you tube", and enter the knot you are interested in seeing. G

[ebe777]

Feb 4, 2009 11:02:32 GMT -5 portofleith said:

Ebe777,
Welcome and don't let the board politics deter you. I just keep doing research off board when the political infighting here starts bordering on the ridiculous. Guessting has already begun this research and started by interviewing a former stripper at one of the Sac local clubs during this time period. The problem that you(or she) might encounter with this research is that many street prostitutes who were working then, are quite likely dead now. Someone did suggest interviewing at the legal bordellos in Nevada that were functioning then.

If I were you, I would email Guessting wihtin the message forum of this venue to find out what she has learned. Her job gives her unique access to the subjects you have mentioned.

Portofleith

Thank you for your kind welcome. Everyone should be looking forward to the E! special. The footage is fantastic. Hopefully it will come off without a hitch.