The first half of 1976 etc

[lepke]

I know that I started a discussion with a similar title on the AETV site, and have had some further thoughts on the issue. I already wrote that if EAR/ONS started off as VR, then he may well have lost around 40lbs in the first half of 1976, and that that likely entailed doing some exercise.

A thought that I have had since then, again on the basis that VR and EAR/ONS are one in the same, is that given the frequency with which they both struck, it is hard to imagine him being around populated areas of California, where there were so many opportunities for him, without committing any crimes for so long.

I think that in that period of time, he was probably not physically in those kind of areas. I wonder where military training takes place, if you are a young Californian man, who wants to join up.

Could he have been doing some kind of training, that would explain the weight loss and the break in his crimes? Could the training have been in a rural location in California, or even somewhere out of the state?

Maybe he never tried to get into the military at all, but I just find it hard to believe, on the basis that EAR/ONS started off as VR, that he would just be able to stop for such a long time, when the same opportunities were still available to him, in terms of being in the right places, and having enough time.

[truthandsoul]

lepke, the weight loss and the frequency make me think he had a cohort. The apparent weight loss is because the VR composite is actually the cohort, and the frequency, at least of the Visalia ransackings was because two of them carried them out.

I don't know enough about military training to comment on the rest. Visalia is pretty rural, and at the time, Sacramento was pretty rural, too (and there are areas not too far now that are still very rural).

[lepke]

Jun 18, 2013 10:56:38 GMT -5 truthandsoul said:

lepke, the weight loss and the frequency make me think he had a cohort. The apparent weight loss is because the VR composite is actually the cohort, and the frequency, at least of the Visalia ransackings was because two of them carried them out.

I don't know enough about military training to comment on the rest. Visalia is pretty rural, and at the time, Sacramento was pretty rural, too (and there are areas not too far now that are still very rural).

When I say rural, I mean being somewhere where there was not a town of ten of thousands of people on the doorstep, and being some distance from anywhere that populated, where there was simply not the kind of homes that he liked to break into.

I can't say that I subscribe to the cohort idea. The frequency was certainly not impossible for one committed man, but I think that it would have been very difficult for VR/EAR/ONS not to commit any crimes at all for a few months, if he was in the right place and had the time.

[greg26011979]

Between the ages of 16 - 17 I lost a lot of "puppy fat" not through any more exercise or anything just naturally. If he was that young that may be the case between 75 and 76.

[lepke]

Jun 18, 2013 11:53:44 GMT -5 greg26011979 said:

Between the ages of 16 - 17 I lost a lot of "puppy fat" not through any more exercise or anything just naturally. If he was that young that may be the case between 75 and 76.

Yes, I lost puppy fat as a teenager too, but did not lose weight, as I became increasingly tall and muscular. It is not normal for a teenager to lose 40lbs, without either trying to through dieting, or doing a load more exercise than they had been.

[greg26011979]

He may have just been a jogger or ran marathon type distances. Swimming would do a lot as well. I don't think "boot" or training camps were prevailant in California in the 1970's.

[lepke]

Jun 18, 2013 12:14:36 GMT -5 greg26011979 said:

He may have just been a jogger or ran marathon type distances. Swimming would do a lot as well. I don't think "boot" or training camps were prevailant in California in the 1970's.

Unless he went to do some military training, possibly did not continue for as long as he anticipated, and having gone in as VR, came out as EAR.

[greg26011979]

The other alternative is he had his fantasies planned out for years and trained in solitude as he practiced towards his goals. Things like jogging, swimming and cycling can be very solitary pursuits, and would provide an opportunity to recon areas without causing too much suspicion.

[truthandsoul]

Jun 18, 2013 11:18:28 GMT -5 lepke said:

Jun 18, 2013 10:56:38 GMT -5 truthandsoul said:

lepke, the weight loss and the frequency make me think he had a cohort. The apparent weight loss is because the VR composite is actually the cohort, and the frequency, at least of the Visalia ransackings was because two of them carried them out.

I don't know enough about military training to comment on the rest. Visalia is pretty rural, and at the time, Sacramento was pretty rural, too (and there are areas not too far now that are still very rural).

When I say rural, I mean being somewhere where there was not a town of ten of thousands of people on the doorstep, and being some distance from anywhere that populated, where there was simply not the kind of homes that he liked to break into.

I can't say that I subscribe to the cohort idea. The frequency was certainly not impossible for one committed man, but I think that it would have been very difficult for VR/EAR/ONS not to commit any crimes at all for a few months, if he was in the right place and had the time.

Certain parts of the "Central Valley" around Visalia are still very rural probably much more so 30+ years ago. If you go East of Visalia, there's some small towns (maybe a few hundred people). Even West, there are some small towns.

Areas to the SW and NW of Sacramento can be very rural, too. Particularly as you get near Yosemite.

I'm not sure I remember what direction you were going with this...

I agree, maybe he could get his "fix" if he worked the area enough.

Fair enough on the cohort idea. But I like it

[lfl91]

The fatboy image keeps poppying up. From what I was told and read, the VR was athletic. I was fortunate to talk to ret Det. McGowen a few weeks prior to his death. He never mention that the VR was a fatboy. He described him as athletic, fast and could jump fences with little effort.

In the VR reports, I recall that Claude Snelling chased off a peeper two weeks prior to the abduction of his daughter and his murder. He described the peeper as a very fast runner and easily jumped the fence.

I was never able to talk to McGowen about the sketches. The first one of the doughboy was done I believe within hours of McGowen being shot at. The composite was done with the use of an identi kit. You go into the kit and pick a nose, then some eyes, etc etc. They were overlays. I am not sure if McGowen was there to help with the composite. He had been taken to the hospital to have shrappnel removed from his face and eyes.

The second composite was done a couple weeks after the doughboy. It didn't indicate the VR was fat.

So my assumption is everyone has focused on a lousy Identi-Kit composite. It's been throwing people off for years.

[sandia]

lfl91, I don't have time at the moment to try to find the description but I do recall off hand that Professor Snelling said he looked "like a kid" is what I think I recall he said and then the other time he described him as older. I can't find my notes on that at the moment, just going by memory. Then I do have a note where on 9/10/73 at 615 W. Kaweah at 9pm a complaintant observed someone exit from the backyard of her home and said "Catch you later, Sandy" and then jogged northbound. Descrimed as WMA 20 to 30, 5'10-5'11", medium build, short cut blond hair, round face. on 7/24/75 1501 W. Kaweah (the Ward Residence/McGowen incident) he was described as wearing a ski mask, 5'10-5'11", HEAVY build with fairly muscular and strong. BUT....then what about the other description where he was knock kneed, big rump, I don't recall at the moment the rest of the description and I thought it came from Officer McGowen? This later description has always been the stumbling block for me on the VR being the EAR. Except one's appearance can be drastically altered by weight loss. Can you clarify on these various VR descriptions? Is it possibly explained by two brothers being involved? Thanks, Sandia

[lfl91]

Round face was reported in the Visalia Times Delta. So everyone in Visalia was looking for someone with a round face. Anyone reporting suspicious activity had to put it in that catagory. Round face.

Reminds me of the DC Shooter. If anyone recalls that it was reported that the DC shooter was probably a white male and there were numerous sightings that he was driving a white van. Everyone was looking for a white van. Tomorrow if you drive someplace, see if you notice any white vans. Probably a better example is during the work week. There are a ton of white vans.

So after several sniper killings, everyone is looking for a white van. Everyone.

Now go back to the VR and the newspaper, everyone is looking for a round face. It might have been totally bogus.

So don't get caught up in the maybe's.

The DC shooter was two black guy's shooting from the trunk of a Chevy Caprice with the keyhole cut out so they could shoot their victims.

Open your minds.

[lfl91]

Round face was reported in the Visalia Times Delta. So everyone in Visalia was looking for someone with a round face. Anyone reporting suspicious activity had to put it in that catagory. Round face.

Reminds me of the DC Shooter. If anyone recalls that it was reported that the DC shooter was probably a white male and there were numerous sightings that he was driving a white van. Everyone was looking for a white van. Tomorrow if you drive someplace, see if you notice any white vans. Probably a better example is during the work week. There are a ton of white vans.

So after several sniper killings, everyone is looking for a white van. Everyone.

Now go back to the VR and the newspaper, everyone is looking for a round face. It might have been totally bogus.

So don't get caught up in the maybe's.

The DC shooter was two black guy's shooting from the trunk of a Chevy Caprice with the keyhole cut out so they could shoot their victims.

Open your minds.

[sandia]

Jun 21, 2013 23:18:28 GMT -5 lfl91 said:

Round face was reported in the Visalia Times Delta. So everyone in Visalia was looking for someone with a round face. Anyone reporting suspicious activity had to put it in that catagory. Round face.

Reminds me of the DC Shooter. If anyone recalls that it was reported that the DC shooter was probably a white male and there were numerous sightings that he was driving a white van. Everyone was looking for a white van. Tomorrow if you drive someplace, see if you notice any white vans. Probably a better example is during the work week. There are a ton of white vans.

So after several sniper killings, everyone is looking for a white van. Everyone.

Now go back to the VR and the newspaper, everyone is looking for a round face. It might have been totally bogus.

So don't get caught up in the maybe's.

The DC shooter was two black guy's shooting from the trunk of a Chevy Caprice with the keyhole cut out so they could shoot their victims.

Open your minds.

[sandia]

Yes! I remember that about the DC Sniper and how one bad tip can do so much harm! I remember hearing about the white van so clearly. Is there anything concrete that we can definitely say? or if not definitely something that looks pretty likely? I did communicate with Officer McGowen's son and he is of the belief that the VR is not the EAR. I wonder why he would say that. There seems to be something conflicting about Officer McGowen's early statement that he was sure he knew who the guy was that shot at him and something he said much later in his life. (My memory!!!!, I can't recall what it was he later said that seemed to conflict.)

[geko]

I hope this link works, did this young chap spend a couple of months in young offenders ?

news.google.com/newspapers?id=6mVHAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XHwMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2321,1096340&dq=visalia+mooney+burglary&hl=en

[lfl91]

I will leave this one alone. It wasn't EAR.